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23 June 2015 @ 09:00 pm
Cultural question to my American friends  
I have a cultural question to my American friends, please. I recently watched the movie "Tangled" in which Rapunzel is born as a princess to a king and his wife. Then she gets stolen. In the original German version it was a poor mother who went to a forbidden garden to eat some Rapunzel (salad) when she was pregnant and the woman that the garden belonged to later took her child as payment. This is where the name Rapunzel comes from.
My question now is: If this whole backstory is erased in the Disney version, how is the name Rapunzel explained then? Isn't that a rather weird name for a child? Why would the king and his wife come up with that? It really puzzles me. Is this only in the Disney version or general in the English version?
elrhiarhodanelrhiarhodan on June 23rd, 2015 07:31 pm (UTC)

American here, and I can tell you that I grew up with the Grimm Brothers' version where Rapunzel's mother begged her husband (and presumably Rapunzel's father) to go to the witch's garden and steal some rampion. I had no clue that the name "Rapunzel" was in anyway related to that.

ETA: The parents were poor, not a king or queen.

This is the version I grew up with.

Edited at 2015-06-23 08:30 pm (UTC)
Antjedieastra on June 23rd, 2015 08:56 pm (UTC)
Hiya, thanks for answering!
Right, I might have butchered my Grimm's tale here a bit, it's been a while that I read it. The husband getting them for her sounds right though.

I had tried to find a picture of Rapunzel salad when making the post but it seems to apply to several things and the meaning is not quite clear. It should look like this though: http://images.eatsmarter.de/sites/default/files/styles/576x432/public/images/warenkunde-feldsalat-341x256.jpg

Thanks for the link, I shall read that! One wonders though why she was not named "Rampion" in the English version then? They did, after all, change Aschenputtel to Cinderella, so why not here?
elrhiarhodanelrhiarhodan on June 23rd, 2015 08:59 pm (UTC)
I think Cinderella is better known through the French version, by Charles Perrault, rather than through the Grimm Bros version, hence the name.

The stories are rather universal.
Antjedieastra on June 23rd, 2015 09:02 pm (UTC)
Ah! That could be it, yeah. And it's true, many stories from different countries are similar.
It's interesting to talk about such things, I remember the day I realized what the word Cinderella actually means, that it is not just a pretty name, but it is made of Cinder and Ella.
elrhiarhodanelrhiarhodan on June 23rd, 2015 09:08 pm (UTC)
Here is the Perrault version, with the origin of the name.

When she had done her work, she used to go to the chimney corner, and sit down there in the cinders and ashes, which caused her to be called Cinderwench. Only the younger sister, who was not so rude and uncivil as the older one, called her Cinderella.

I actually prefer the more gory Grimm Bros version, where the sisters chop of bits of their feet to fit into the slipper and then doves come and peck their eyes out for lying.
Traycer: Danieltraycer_ on June 23rd, 2015 08:24 pm (UTC)
I too am American, but I've never heard of the salad version of this story. I do remember that there was a witch involved. Maybe Disney heard the same version of the story that I heard.

ETA: And now that I think about it a little more, I think there was a salad, so please disregard my earlier comment. :) I'm just going to slink away now ...

Edited at 2015-06-23 08:29 pm (UTC)
Antjedieastra on June 23rd, 2015 08:59 pm (UTC)
I just got this link from a friend: http://pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/story127.pdf and it says indeed that she was making a salad of rampion. I wonder though why they did not name her Rampion then! That would have been logical.
wanderingsmithwanderingsmith on June 23rd, 2015 08:54 pm (UTC)
I have crap for memory so I don't know about salad or the details. but as to why we wouldn't question the name.. to my canadian ears Rapunzel is no weirder than Cinderella (the fact that you can use 'cinder' to tease the girl for being dirty doesn't explain the name to start...). or, hey, 'Snow White'... fairy tales have fairy tale names -shrug-
Antjedieastra on June 23rd, 2015 09:08 pm (UTC)
Elrhiarodan above posted this link of the English fairytale version for us all to read: http://pinkmonkey.com/dl/library1/story127.pdf
There is indeed talk of a salad of rampions. So she should have been named Rampion ;)

The way I understand it, the girl was named Ella first, and then they put the Cinder in front, so as Cinder-Ella. Not sure that's right though. In German she is called Aschenputtel, and Asche means cinder as well.

At least with Snow White they explain where the name comes from, with her being as white as snow etc. At least I assume they do? And what you call sleeping beauty, is called Dornröschen in German - which means rose with a thorn or something like that.

Yeah, that's true about fairytale names, and this is one of the reasons I can't get into stories like Lord of the rings - too many weirdly spelled and pronounced names for my liking.
wanderingsmithwanderingsmith on June 23rd, 2015 09:22 pm (UTC)
being as white as snow
yeah, but they always say that about princesses...

too many weirdly spelled and pronounced names for my liking.
snort! just as true in sci fi as it is in fantasy. or in history, for that matter, as soon as you change countries or go back too many centuries in your own country even

hell, even here. enough people of different nationalities that 'weird' names are pretty common.
Antjedieastra on June 23rd, 2015 09:41 pm (UTC)
Huh, I guess you're right. Thinking back to my Stargate days, with Teal'c and Tok'ra and Goa'uld and Zat'nik'tel and Kelno'reem and... (why does it always have to be apostrophes?)

And the worst thing is, I didn't even have to think about this!

Okay, so it's not the names, but fantasy as a genre does not appeal to me. All those witches and wizards.
wanderingsmithwanderingsmith on June 23rd, 2015 09:42 pm (UTC)
All those witches and wizards.
LOL! well, there I can't help :)

..though why do wizards get shafted but the asgard accepted?
Antje: RDA2011dieastra on June 23rd, 2015 09:53 pm (UTC)
Don't ask me. All I wanted was having a look what MacGyver now looks like a few years later. So I zapped in. Saw him, realized he had a different (German dubbed) voice, found that odd. Then a Goa'uld came around and flashed his eyes and spoke with a weird voice. I thought "what crap" and zapped out again. For a few weeks I only watched like a couple of minutes here or there, but as soon as it became "weird", I was running away.

The first real episode I watched in full was "Window of opportunity", because I adore time loop movies, when they try to change something and then realize it's only getting worse. At the end of this episode, I was hooked. I didn't know the movie at the time, but the end, with Jack mentioning Charlie, that was really touching. And blew me away, after all the silliness before.

I always said I am no science-fiction fan, and it is still true (no idea what everyone likes at Star Wars and even though I watch TOS now I can't see myself starting with any of the other Star Trek series). But Stargate was different, as it was not set in any distant future - it was ordinary people with ordinary weapons, and of course Jack's great one-liners. It didn't take itself too seriously, but still was good drama - if we don't count the last two seasons. Because here it turned indeed into fantasy, with the Ori and the power through believing and wasn't there a dragon once as well? And I remember when they went into a cave and then it closed itself by magically appearing walls.

So far at least they had tried to find a scientific explanation and Carter always saved the day, but how do you fight magically appearing walls? You can't. And that's what I hate about it. Someone waves his hand and stuff happens.

So, as there was enough "ordinary" stuff, I could accept some of the more crazier ones, like the Asgard, or others. I guess this is also why I prefer Torchwood over Doctor Who - Torchwood is also set in our time, in Cardiff, again ordinary people trying to fight aliens with whatever they have.
wanderingsmithwanderingsmith on June 23rd, 2015 10:14 pm (UTC)
lol, and then, some shows grab you and some don't.. part of it, to me, is just karma. the same way some people just make you cringe without any actual reason to account for it
Antjedieastra on June 24th, 2015 07:26 am (UTC)
It's all about the actors for me. THEY need to grab me. I watched "Lost" till the end, having no idea what was going on anymore but I really loved the actors.

I hadn't expected to like "Arrow" as much as I do either. I only wanted to watch for John Barrowman. See how that turned out...

Yeah, with some people you hit it off instantly (the mails with my newest fried became longer and longer and we found we had so many similarities) and with others you have no idea what to talk about. Even with fellow JB fans. Isn't that odd? But it is good that people are different. Would be boring otherwise.
wanderingsmithwanderingsmith on June 25th, 2015 03:38 am (UTC)
But it is good that people are different. Would be boring otherwise.
as long as you get a little of both :)
Tinny: __anvil by searosetinnny on June 28th, 2015 09:50 am (UTC)
Snow White, yes they do.

The tale starts with the queen pricking her finger, and the blood in the snow on the windowsill prompts her to wish for a girl as white as snow, as red as blood, and as black as ebony. So she names her Snow White (and then dies.)
owensheartowensheart on June 24th, 2015 10:11 am (UTC)
The English version I know from my childhood is the same as your German version, I think Disney is just a law unto itself and changes things to suit its films.
Antjedieastra on July 8th, 2015 08:24 am (UTC)
Yes I think you're right about Disney. Which is sad, as many people only know the Disney version and then think it is all true.